Hi I recently noticed in a house I bought that I have a 50 amp outlet in my kitchen that is connected to my electric range stove that requires a 2 pole 40 Amp breaker. But the breaker that these are connected to is a 2 pole 20amp breaker with 12awg wire. Is this safe and/or Correct?
Electrical – 2 pole 20amp breaker connected to the 40 amp stove
electrical
Related Solutions
Electrical – What amp breaker for 20 Amp electrical oven and 40 Amp electrical range on same circuit
Column C
First off you'll notice the text "Column C to be used in all cases except as otherwise permitted in Note 3.)", in the title of table 220.55. This makes it simple. You have 2 appliances, so follow that over in the table, and you'll see 11 in Column C. So there you go, you can just use 11 kW. Done.
11,000 W / 240 V = 45.8333 A
So you'll need a 50 ampere breaker, and wire sized appropriately for the load.
Note 3
Note 3 says:
- Over 1 3⁄4 kW through 8 3⁄4 kW. In lieu of the method provided in Column C, it shall be permissible to add the nameplate ratings of all household cooking appliances rated more than 1 3⁄4 kW but not more than 8 3⁄4 kW and multiply the sum by the demand factors specified in Column A or Column B for the given number of appliances. Where the rating of cooking appliances falls under both Column A and Column B, the demand factors for each column shall be applied to the appliances for that column, and the results added together.
Perfect, so instead of just using the value from column C you can do math. Let's step through it.
...it shall be permissible to add the nameplate ratings of all household cooking appliances rated more than 1 3⁄4 kW but not more than 8 3⁄4 kW...
8.4 kW + 5.0 kW = 13.4 kW
...and multiply the sum by the demand factors specified in Column A or Column B for the given number of appliances...
Let's check the table again... You have 2 appliances, both between 3 1/2 and 8 3/4 kW. So You'll look at column B, and find 65%.
13.4 kW * 65% = 8.71 kW
8710 W / 240 V = 36.2916 A
So using this method you can use a 40 ampere breaker, and appropriately sized wire. However, keep in mind that if you change the equipment, you'll have to do the calculation again. So while you can use this value, you may have to upgrade the circuit later if you change equipment.
Note 4
I'm not exactly sure how note 4 comes into play, but I think it can be used if this is the only equipment on the branch circuit. Just for fun, let's run through that one too.
- Branch-Circuit Load. It shall be permissible to calculate the branch-circuit load for one range in accordance with Table 220.55. The branch-circuit load for one wall-mounted oven or one counter-mounted cooking unit shall be the nameplate rating of the appliance. The branch-circuit load for a counter-mounted cooking unit and not more than two wall-mounted ovens, all supplied from a single branch circuit and located in the same room, shall be calculated by adding the nameplate rating of the individual appliances and treating this total as equivalent to one range.
You're only concerned with the second half of this note, since you have one counter-mounted cooking unit, and one wall-mounted oven, all supplied by a single branch-circuit, and located in the same room. So you can add the nameplate values, and treat it as a single range.
8.4 kW + 5.0 kW = 13.4 kW
So you can treat the units as a single 13.4 kW range. Check the column C again, this time for a single range. You'll find a value of 8 kW. But wait... The column header says "(Not over 12 kW Rating)". Your range is 13.4 kW. That's bigger than 12 kW. Now you'll have to check note 1
- Over 12 kW through 27 kW ranges all of same rating. For ranges individually rated more than 12 kW but not more than 27 kW, the maximum demand in Column C shall be increased 5 percent for each additional kilowatt of rating or major fraction thereof by which the rating of individual ranges exceeds 12 kW.
That's easy enough.
13.4 kW - 8 kW = 5.4 kW
Since .4 is not a "major fraction", you can just use 5 kW. So you'll have to add 5% 5 times.
5% * 5 = 0.25
8000 W * 0.25 = 2000 W
8000 W + 2000 W = 10,000 W
That means you'll have to use 10 kW as your demand.
10,000 W / 240 V = 41.666 A
Which means you can use a 50 ampere breaker, and appropriately size wire.
EDIT: The OP realized after reading this that she doesn't have an actual sub panel. I started answering in a comment and it was just too long. ;-)
Well... so what you really have is a 3-wire "Edison" shared-neutral circuit with a bootleg ground. The 3-wire circuit is legal, but the bootleg ground isn't. Technically, since the old wire is probably #8, the neutral is big enough to carry whatever current might end up on it without overheating and starting a fire, so that's a bit of comfort. However; you could still end up with problems. At best, the problems might be unwanted radio frequency interference in whatever you plug into those outlets. At worst, if the neutral failed (in the main panel or in the re-purposed stove outlet box), you could maybe end up with something dangerous.
You have at least two possible solutions:
1) Install GFCI outlets. Disconnect the neutral and ground wires from each other, and put the little stickers on the outlets that say "No Equipment Ground." This is safe, legal and acceptable as long as you keep in mind that some sensitive electronics might experience unwanted noise. But nothing will catch on fire and the GFCI's will protect against electrocution.
2) Run a separate ground wire back to the main panel. You could get away with pulling a single wire rather than pulling all-new 4-wire cable. In fact you could pull a bare copper wire of sufficient size as long as it's protected from mechanical damage (you can't run a bare wire in metal conduit without bonding the conduit). But you could also pick up green-insulated wire by the foot at your local box store. Don't run a ground wire in any color other than green. You could also, of course, just pull new cable. If you do that, you could pull 12/3 NM cable (with ground), or could could pull two 12/2 NM cables (with ground). If the run is really, really long (100 feet or more), maybe you'd want to pull 10/3 or 10/2, to reduce voltage drop. But #12 wire is adequate for 20A circuits.
And a caveat/warning: I presume that the original two-pole 40A breaker was replaced with a two-pole 20A breaker (and not with two independent 20A breakers, either)?
If the 40A breaker is still there, then you don't have two 20A circuits, you actually have two 40A circuits. The original wire will handle this, but the 15A or 20A receptacles that are now attached to the old circuits are not rated for 40A, and therefore the breaker will not protect those receptacles (which is illegal).
ORIGINAL: It used to be permissible only for detached structures and then only under strict conditions for a sub panel to be fed with only three wires and the grounding and neutral conductors to be bonded, but not any more. Even when it was allowed, imagine a mistake or fault running the return current through the metal panel, the metal case of your microwave, coffee maker, hand tools, your hair dryer, or any conduit between the panels, and so on.
Here's a good answer, which calls out relevant NEC sections. That answer relates to a sub panel in a detached out-building, but the same rules apply to a sub panel inside your house, except that you don't need dedicated grounding rods for a sub panel inside the same house (the panels aren't so far apart and the structure isn't so big that you have substantially different voltage potential to ground in different parts of your house).
If there aren't 4 wires in the cable between the sub panel and the main panel and you want to fix it up right, you should pull new 4 wire cable (3 conductors plus ground).
The neutral (grounded) and grounding conductors need to be isolated from each other in the sub panel.
The neutral bus will be the one(s) mounted on a plastic standoff, like the hot buses are. The neutral (grounded) bus bar is the one on your right in the first picture below, mounted on the black plastic standoffs. If there is a screw that goes through the neutral bus and into the panel itself (a metal connection from the neutral bar to the panel), it should be removed in a sub panel. The grounding bus bar is the one on your left, bonded directly to the panel housing.
In the second picture, the neutral bus is the one in the top right corner of the panel. And incidentally, the panel in the second picture is wired up incorrectly. It's obviously a sub panel, but you can see that it is only fed by three wires, and the neutral and grounding buses are electrically bonded together with a couple of white wires. To be corrected, that panel in the pictures needs a 4th wire--a ground wire going all the way back to the main panel, and the neutral and grounding buses must be disconnected.
There are different designs that accomplish the same thing. In the next two pictures you can see one method of bonding (or isolating) the neutral (grounded) and grounding buses. This would be connected (bonded) in a main panel, and disconnected in a sub panel.
So... if your sub panel was designed to be used as a sub panel, there will be some kind of disconnect for the neutral and grounding buses, or there will be a place to install an isolated neutral bus.
Of course the grounding wires and the neutral wires should be connected to their own buses separately, not mingled.
The reason for disconnecting the neutral and grounding conductors in the sub panel is to assure a low resistance path in the event of a fault, and to ensure that the neutral current never returns on the grounding conductors, which can energize the housings of appliances and electrical boxes/panels and electrocute you. In the case of a neutral failure, the ground could end up carrying all of the circuit's current, energizing the housings of your appliances, tools and the panel itself, but the circuit would continue to work without tripping the breaker.
Related Topic
- Electrical – 50 Amp tankless water heater and 30 amp double pole switch
- Electrical – 240v double pole breaker for two 120v circuits
- Electrical – Is it safe to combine 2, single pole 20 amp circuits
- Electrical – Is too much of the home connected to one circuit breaker
- Electrical – Can a single pole (normal/regular) circuit breaker be used in spots designated for tandem
- Electrical – 2 pole 15 amp breaker off of a 2 pole 20 amp breaker
- Electrical – How to convert the range receptacle
- Electrical Safety – Can a 30A Dryer Socket Be Swapped with a 40A Range Socket?
Best Answer
It is not correct, NEC 210.21(B)(3) specifies a 50 amp receptacle on 40 amp breaker, with minimum #8 AWG wire is the correct configuration for a 40A range. (NEMA does not designate a 40A configuration.)
It is likely the breaker will protect the wire from being damaged, but the breaker will likely trip often and wear out quickly. Typically modern breakers failure mode is to become more sensitive.
I would suspect the house was originally wired for a gas range.