[RPG] At what point is someone, who has attempted to hide, considered to be hidden, when resolving tied contests

dnd-5eskillsstealth

Inspired by discussion in the comments on this question.

Successfully hiding is normally the result of a 'contest' sometimes known as an 'opposed check'. The person attempting to hide makes a Dexterity (Stealth) roll contested by the Wisdom (Perception) of the person who may or may not be able to see them.

In the case of a tie between these two rolls:

the situation remains the same as it was before the contest. Thus, one contestant might win the contest by default.

How should this ruling be applied with regards to hiding? If, in the event of a tie, 'the situation remains the same as it was before the contest' does that always means the hider has failed to hide? Or can it sometimes mean the hider stays hidden?

Consider the following scenarios (assume hiding is possible and allowed by DM in each and that hider has rolled 15 on stealth):

  1. Hider is chased through a fairly dense forest, gets a little distance between them and their pursuer and attempts to hide. The chaser quickly approaches their hiding place, with a perception check of 15, tieing their stealth roll – result: they failed to hide successfully and are spotted.

  2. Hider is chased through a forest by multiple pursuers, one pretty observant but unfit, one moderately fit but a bit of a daydreamer. The hider, as in scenario 1, gains a little distance on their pursuer and attempts to hide. First on the scene is the Daydreamer, with a perception check of only 12 they blunder straight on, past the hider, deeper into the undergrowth – the hider has successfully hidden from them. Seconds later, the more Observant, but less fit, pursuer comes panting and puffing into view and with their perception check of 15 they tie the hider's stealth roll. What happens next?

    a. Does the hider remain hidden? We've already had an opposed check which has concluded that they have successfully hidden. So, if we resolve the tie by the situation 'remaining the same' then does that mean the hider remains hidden? That would mean that the pursuer's chances of finding their quarry had been actively harmed, rather than helped by their companion. Their chance of finding him is now 5% worse.

    b. Or, is the hider discovered? Can we argue that the first contested check is entirely unrelated to the second? The first situation has resolved that the hider is hidden with respect to the Daydreamer. But in the second check the hider (with the same stealth roll) is attempting to hide from someone different. With respect to the observant pursuer they have failed to successfully hide and so are spotted.

Finally, is the result of any of the above scenarios changed if the amount of time that elapses between actions (hiding v. percieving) is lengthened?

Best Answer

In the event of a tie, the default state is 'not hidden'

The default assumption of the game is that you can see each-other. You hide in an attempt to change that state, so if a perception check ties with somebody's hide check, that hide attempt has failed against that person. Even if you are invisible, your location is still known by default.

However, you seem to be ruling that a group of enemies will always be aware of the same enemies, as if they're some kind of hive mind. This isn't actually supported by the rules.

When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the GM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.

When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden–both unseen and unheard–when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

'Hidden' isn't some form of magical state that is on or off, it's simply the idea of being hidden from somebody. If I hide from you, and you fail to spot me, but your friend does, you do not become aware of my position right away. However, your friend can point out where I am hiding, at which point you would know my location and can attack with disadvantage, despite not being able to see me.

I assume your confusion stems from this line on hiding:

When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.

You read this as "once you are discovered, your hide ends and nobody needs to compare their perception anymore". I read this as "once you are discovered by a creature, that creature doesn't need to contest with perception anymore until you hide from them again". That does not mean you could not still be hidden from other creatures.

So in your scenario:

  • Fit guy comes up to hider's location, doesn't spot him and keeps running.
  • Slow guy comes up to hider's location, spots him and stops to confront the hider.

At this point, fast guy does not know where the hider is hidden and depending on how much faster he is than slow guy, he might already be out of range when fast guy starts shouting that he's found the hider.

Some examples:

Positional hiding: Imagine a wall. I'm standing behind it, so I'm hidden from you. You walk around the wall and instantly spot me because I'm not hidden behind anything anymore, but unless you let your friend on the other side of the wall know where I am, they don't know where I am hidden.

Hiding in darkness: You are a human, you lack darkvision. I'm a sneaky Drow and I know you can't see me, so I roll a stealth check to hide my sounds and I walk up to you, you are unable to see me so I am hidden. However, your friend standing next to you has darkvision and they can see me perfectly well, so I'm not hidden from them, even if my stealth check beats their perception check. They can point out my location to you, at which point you can attack with disadvantage in the location they indicate. (If they can somehow indicate a location you can discern in pure darkness, that is, for example "straight ahead of you")

Being invisible: I'm invisible, so I attempt to hide so you can no longer discern my location by sound. I succeed in beating your perception and I am now hidden, you have no idea where I am and you have to guess my location. Your friend beats my hide check, so he knows my location, but he still can't see me. I realize this, and I attempt a new hide check, now neither of you beat the check and I am hidden from both. Your friend, being a cunning wizard, casts a spell that allows him to see invisible creatures. I am still hidden from you, but your friend can now see me clear as day so I am no longer hidden for him.

In short, you can be hidden from one person and not from somebody else.

Related Topic