Suppose you are a level 10 Magus or something similar. (Something with a decent BAB progression and spellcasting abilities) When you hit +6/+1, can you cast a spell, then attack, vice-versa, or simply case two spells? Everywhere I look I can't get a clear answer.
[RPG] Can a magus with a high BAB cast two spells or attack and cast, with their full attack action
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Related Solutions
The TWF fighter does less damage than a two-handed fighter on a single attack action (about 35% less), but virtually ties with a full attack action. Letting the TWF fighter always get his full attack damage significantly unbalances the equation in the other direction.
The thing is, whichever configuration you take, you can work on infinitely twinking it out. Two-weapon fighting is better when you want many more attacks. Being a rogue with sneak attack is the number one example of this. Or if you bleed per attack (like with Bloody Assault). Or use poison. Or use the various critical effects from the critical feats. Or want to use some of those attacks for trip/disarm/sunder attacks. There's a bunch of ways to increase your TWF damage by stacking "per hit" things on top.
Two-handed is better when something has DR or you're only getting one attack action in. Per-attack damage plusses and minuses and additional conditions affect a two-weapon fighter much more than a two-handed fighter - a "bard bonus" is multiplied in value by number of attacks. And as you note, you have to get a full attack to get those other attacks... But that's the same thing with a L11 two-handed fighter, they lose out on a lot of attacks when they can't stick and hit.
A straight fighter will do more dps in an abstract sense with a two-handed weapon than two-weapon fighting, if all he does is straightforward hitting without any other interesting feats. But if you change the TWF rules, your player is just going to turn around and layer the other TWF twinks on top and suddenly it's the more powerful thing, and you have to start worrying about your two-hander player... Because he who inflicts the most damage wins the game, apparently.
Also, there's a difference between optimization and real play. Real adventurers find gear, they don't "have 32000 to spend on it." I've played and GMed a lot of Pathfinder, and players have run and enjoyed two-weapon characters as much as two-hander characters. (Sword and board, however, sucks.)
Since the peanut gallery demands "math," here's some reasonably maxed out L11 characters, using all the Paizoey goodness. Each has more special abilites than one can reasonably enumerate, but I tried to stick to "jack up the numbers" options as much as possible. Full builds are below, but the relevant stuff here is that:
- 2HGuy, attack action: +23 (4d6+29/19-20 plus 1d6 fire plus 1d6 cold) 19-20 x2 - power attack, overhand chop is giving double STR to damage, vital strike, furious focus
- 2HGuy full attack: +23/+15/+10 (2d6+25/19-20 plus 1d6 fire plus 1d6 cold, 2d6+29 for attacks 2 and 3 from backswing) 19-20 x2
- 2WFGuy, attack action: +15 (1d6+15/17-20 plus 1d6 fire)/+15 (1d6+12/17-20 plus 1d6 cold) 17-20 x2 - two attacks from Doublestrike, piranha strike is like Power Attack for Dex, if he hits with both then 1d10+1 rend, if he crits +2d6 bleed, agile weapon enhancement gives +dex to damage
- 2WFGuy, full attack: +17/+12/+7 (1d6+17/17-20 plus 1d6 fire)/+17/+12/+7 (1d6+14/17-20 plus 1d6 cold) 17-20 x2, if he hits with both then 1d10+(1.5x Strength modifier) rend, if he crits +2d6 bleed, agile weapon enhancement gives +dex to damage, +2/+2 during full attack from twin blades, and also +4 AC bonus from two-weapon defense and defensive flurry)
Versus let's say AC 25, the average DPS (including crits and rend) for each is:
- 2HGuy, attack action: 55.67 (plus maybe shaken)
- 2HGuy, full attack: 87.06 (plus almost guaranteed shaken)
- 2WFGuy, attack action: 35.55 (plus two points of bleed)
- 2WFGuy, full attack: 81.80 (plus 5 points of bleed ongoing)
So yes obviously, in high mobility situations the 2WF guy loses out (though he does get two attacks, not one, from his archetype), but he's pretty much neck and neck in a full attack situation, any slight change to any of these numbers makes the winner of the full attack follies go back and forth. Both these characters have loads of other fun stuff to do, they have more feats than they know what to do with. The TWF guys is obviously much tighter on feats and stuff. Keep in mind this is a straight fighter compare, and there's other ways to fill out TWF and all those rogues with sneak attack can stack a lot of damage on... Go look at some build guides and there's plenty of L11 twf builds out there that do a lot more than this.
Does the TWF guy lose? Yes. But the question is, "is the answer to let him have his 81-point full attack with a standard action?" The answer to that is no, it unbalances it back the other way.
Full builds
Because everyone has stat boost items I usually don't add them, but in this case I decided to make up the wealth differential caused by the weapons with a +4 belt of strength.
2HGuy
Human (Kellid) Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter) 11 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 0)
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +1; Senses Perception -1
Defense
AC 11, touch 11, flat-footed 10 (+1 Dex)
hp 114 (11d10+44)
Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +2
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 cruel flaming frost greatsword +20/+15/+10 (2d6+25/19-20 plus 1d6 fire plus 1d6 cold)
Special Attacks backswing, overhand chop, piledriver, shattering strike, weapon trainings (heavy blades +2, pole arms +1)
Statistics
Str 24, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 9, Wis 9, Cha 9
Base Atk +11; CMB +15 (+19 bull rush, +18 sunder); CMD 29 (31 vs. bull rush, 32 vs. sunder)
Feats Bull Rush StrikeAPG, Cornugon Smash, Dazing AssaultAPG, Dreadful CarnageAPG, Furious FocusAPG, Greater Bull Rush, Horn of the Criosphinx, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Pushing AssaultAPG, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Skills Acrobatics +12, Intimidate +13
Languages Common, Hallit
Other Gear +2 cruel flaming frost greatsword, belt of giant strength +4, 150 gp
Special Abilities
Backswing (Ex) Attacks after the first in a full attack receive 2x STR bonus.
Bull Rush Strike Critical hit's confirmation roll is a Bull Rush maneuver check.
Cornugon Smash When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Dazing Assault (DC 21) -5 to all attacks and maneuvers but struck foes are dazed 1 rd (Fort neg).
Dreadful Carnage If you reduce an enemy to 0 or fewer HP, you can make an intimidate check to demoralize all enemies within 30' as a free action.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Greater Bull Rush When bull rushing, foe's movement provokes AoO from your allies.
Horn of the Criosphinx Add 2x your Str bonus to damage rolls on charges while wielding a two handed weapon.
Improved Bull Rush You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when bull rushing.
Overhand Chop (Ex) Single attacks with two-handed weapons receive double STR bonus.
Piledriver (Ex) Standard action: attack with a two handed weapon, if successful, free bull rush or trip w/o AoO.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Pushing Assault If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, push the target 5' back instead of dealing power attack damage.
Shattering Strike +3 (Ex) +3 Sunder and damage vs. objects.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Pole Arms) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms
2WFGuy
Human (Kellid) Fighter (Two-Weapon Fighter) 11 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 0)
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception -1
Defense
AC 16, touch 15, flat-footed 11 (+1 shield, +5 Dex)
hp 114 (11d10+44)
Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +2 (+3 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +3, defensive flurry
Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 agile flaming cold iron shortsword +15/+10/+5 (1d6+15/17-20 plus 1d6 fire) and
+2 agile frost mithral shortsword +15/+10/+5 (1d6+12/17-20 plus 1d6 cold)
Special Attacks doublestrike, improved balance, twin blades
Statistics
Str 13, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 9, Wis 9, Cha 9
Base Atk +11; CMB +9; CMD 27
Feats Bleeding Critical, Critical Focus, Double Slice, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical (shortsword), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Piranha Strike, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (shortsword), Weapon Specialization (shortsword)
Skills Acrobatics +16, Intimidate +13
Languages Common, Hallit
Other Gear +2 agile flaming cold iron shortsword, +2 agile frost mithral shortsword, 150 gp
Special Abilities
Bleeding Critical Critical Hits deal 2d6 bleed damage.
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Defensive Flurry +3 (Ex) +3 AC vs. melee when making a full-attack with both weapons.
Doublestrike (Ex) Standard action: Attack once with each weapon (normal two-weapon penalties).
Improved Balance -1 (Ex) Reduce the penalties for two-weapon fighting or count off-handed one-handed weapon as light.
Piranha Strike -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Twin Blades +2 (Ex) +2 to hit and damage when making a full attack with both weapons.
Two-Weapon Defense +1 to AC while wielding 2 weapons. +2 when doing so defensively.
Two-Weapon Rend Deal extra 1d10+(1.5x strength modifier) if you hit a foe with both main and off hand weapons.
Spellslinger option
Gunslinger 1/Spellslinger 19 seems like your best bet. Gunslinger 1 gets you Grit, most notably the Quick Clear option early on. Also, getting Gunsmith from both Gunslinger and Spellslinger arguably gets you two battered guns, which is nice with the dual-gun option on Arcane Gun. The single-gun option doesn’t seem worth it, particularly not when you have two guns anyway.
Feats
Feats are a problem; you want a lot of them. Human as your race probably makes the most sense. Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Reload are stupid feat taxes, but you still have to take them. Two-weapon Fighting seems kind of obviously desirable, but I’m not actually convinced that it is: you need a lot of feats, and you will not be Full Attacking often, between the need to reload and the use of Standard Actions to shoot.
Too bad guns suck
The other issue is that, sadly, firearms pretty much suck. They’re expensive (or time consuming) to arm, they are prone to misfire and breaking (especially Arcane Guns), their damage is decent to start with but doesn’t scale very well since you’re not adding any ability scores to it, and they take ages to reload. Rapid Reload is a necessary feat and still isn’t nearly good enough.
School of the Gun is absurd
And then we come to the huge problem: School of the Gun forces you to ban four spell schools. See my Q&A on banning schools; it’s 3.5-based, but ultimately the choice is based on which spells each has, and the spells have not changed all that much between 3.5 and Pathfinder. I recommend banning Enchantment and Evocation to start with, and then Abjuration and Divination so long as you have a cleric who can cover those. If not... I really would not be doing this. Necromancy’s next up, probably still along with Divination even if you don’t have a Cleric; you don’t want to leave your party without dispel magic. You really do not want to give up Conjuration, Illusion, or Transmutation ever.
Frankly, you’re getting nothing but problems here. The gun’s damage isn’t even remotely enough to justify their own misfires and reloading problems, much less the loss of four schools. You don’t even get the Arcane Archer’s trick of throwing Personal-range effects “over there.”
Arcane Archer option
A much, much better approach is to just go Wizard 10/Arcane Archer 10, and call your light crossbow a gun. Maybe talk with your DM and see if you can take firearm-specific feats with the crossbow. But you can keep the crossbow behaving as a crossbow; no need to use firearms’ terrible mechanics. With this, you can also take the fairly-solid Focused Shot feat after Precise Shot, to add Int to your damage.
Straight Gunslinger; take magical feats, traits, and ammunition
The other option is to go straight Gunslinger, and ignore spells entirely. This guide is excellent for that. Notably, Gunsmithing and a rank of Craft (alchemy) can create alchemical cartridges for guns. Further, the Mysterious Stranger archetype is Charisma-based, and that can lead you to having decent skills with Use Magic Device even cross-class (it is a very, very bad sign that cross-class UMD is a serious suggestion, though). Mysterious Strangers can also put the Dangerously Curious and Magical Talent magical traits to good use. Ultimate Magic’s Eldritch Heritage feats come highly recommended, again especially as a Mysterious Stranger (the aforementioned guide goes further and recommends a halfling mysterious stranger, but I’m not sure why). Master Craftsman and Arcane Talent can also allow you to craft true magical ammunition.
Gun Magus homebrew
Finally, this homebrewer has created a Gun Magus archetype that might be worth considering, if you’re allowed homebrew. The ability to “shoot spells” is still quite limited, again falling quite short of what the Arcane Archer can do, but you get grit, deeds, and spells. Furthermore, ErrantX is one of the best d20 System designers out there right now: his homebrew has long been widely regarded as some of the best out there, his long-running homebrew PrC competitions have been wildly popular and have produced some incredible work, and he currently is a professional RPG author for Dreamscarred Press, hired as the Lead Developer of their forthcoming Path of War supplement. If you’re unfamiliar, Dreamscarred Press is responsible for Pathfinder’s psionics system, and are, themselves, extremely well thought of. I would say they know Pathfinder better than Paizo does. They certainly have superior design skills.
Related Topic
- [RPG] Magus question: Combining spell strike and spell combat
- [RPG] the sense of a spell/power/effect with Standard Action casting time and only 1 round duration
- [RPG] Can a single attack be a full attack action
- [RPG] Why are high ability scores mandatory to cast spells
- [RPG] How does vital strike work with magus spellstrike
- [RPG] Cheapest way to cast spells with sword and (heavy) shield
Best Answer
No, you cannot. Casting is a standard action, and no matter what you only get 1 standard action per round. Multiple attacks due to high BAB changes your attack from a standard action to a full round action.
You can, however, take the feat Quicken Spell so that you cast one spell as a standard action and one as a swift action, but you still only get one standard action.
But - A Magus gets his attacks as free actions when he casts a touch attack spell
Specific to your class, is the Spell Combat ability and the Spellstrike ability. While these abilities do let you cast a spell to augment your attack actions, you are still required to choose a standard action attack or a full round attack (you don't have to perform more than a single melee and touch attack, but you spend a full round doing it either way) and you cannot cast the spell between attacks if you get more than one.
From Spell Combat:
This allows the Magus to use his touch attack in addition to his melee attack as a full round action. If he has additional attacks due to high BAB, he gets those during this full round as well.
From Spellstrike:
Spellstrike allows you to apply the touch attacks to your melee attacks and on a free melee attack that round (and on BAB bonus attacks if the spell has multiple attacks) and even on subsequent rounds if the touch attack spell has more uses than you can expend in one round. (disclaimer, this statement is based off of the D20PFSRD FAQ, and may not be considered RAW canon)
You can even have both active at the same time and still attack. (note that you are applying both abilities to a single spell cast, not casting two spells)
Also of note, you can make a five foot step during a full round attack, meaning you can cast your spell using Spell Combat, (casting defensively if you are threatened) attack, move 5 feet, and attack again.