[RPG] Can a Succubus suppress the power and effect of her kiss

dnd-5emonsters

The description of the Succubus in 5th edition D&D (MM, p284) seems a bit contradictory. Under Beautiful Corrupters, it says

Appearing in the guise of a humanoid who has previously appeared only
in the victim's dreams, the succubus or incubus seduces or befriends
its victim, indulging all its desires so that it performs evil acts of
its own free will.

However, under Deadly Kiss of a Succubus, we read that

(…) the recipient of the fiend's kiss gains no satisfaction from it,
experiencing only pain and the profound emptiness that the fiend
imparts.

The stat block of the creature has a specific entry for the kissing action called Draining Kiss. (The Succubus does have the Shapechanger ability as well, but that does not disable Draining Kiss.)

So, maybe it's just me, but "indulging all its desires" likely covers a bit more than a first, and possibly last, likely lethal kiss — a kiss which would, by killing its victim too soon, prevent the Succubus from achieving her purpose, that is, making the victim commit the three betrayals.

In light of the above, the question arises:

Can the Succubus suppress the power and effect of her kiss?

(Sure I know I'm free to make whatever of the creature as a DM. What I'm primarily interested in is whether the official rules or the official "fluff" resolve this apparent contradiction someplace else, whether I overlooked something somewhere.)

Best Answer

The way it's described seems very straightforward, yet I'm unsure whether it's actually the intended behavior. As we're left to guesses, I'll list what I think the MM is trying to say:

Deadly Kiss is a quality of the character. It's described as "The kiss of a Succubus or incubus is an echo of the emptiness that is the fiend's longing for a corrupted soul," which makes me believe it's unable to suppress this effect, being tied to its own nature.
Draining Kiss is an action, which has to be used in the RPG context, and unless they're doing so, they will simply kiss the other character normally (though with the effects of Deadly Kiss applying).
In the character narrative, a Succubus must choose to drain its victim's vitality, but they can kiss them without doing so.

I would also say that they might be unaware of the effects of Deadly Kiss, thinking to pleasure their victim, while giving their motives away in the process, or unintentionally killing the victim too early. They would, however, have to be aware of the effects of Draining Kiss in order for it to make any sense.

Indulging in a bit of story design, they would likely be furious about unintentionally killing someone they already had worked on for some time, becoming more relentless trying to get to their next victim, yet learn that they must use very specific methods and can't simply turn a human by physical pleasures alone.

They would possibly turn mad from not being able to fulfill their own desires eventually, becoming chaotic evil and using their abilities to cause pain and suffering, rather than strive for their original goal of obtaining someone's soul, and therefore becoming more of a mindless fiend than a calculating enemy.

The question remains how Deadly Kiss actually kills, if it's not by the same means as Draining Kiss. I would say (and this has no ground whatsoever, it's simply my guess, or how I would see it playing out well) that the pain caused by the kiss is inflicting damage proportional to the corruption caused by the Succubus (that the victim would be subconciously aware of).

This way, a Succubus interacts with low-level NPCs the same way it does with high-level heroes, in that it can't simply kill off any character, yet will be able to deliver a last fatal kiss to a successfully corrupted character, obtaining their soul no matter how powerful they are otherwise.

Also, the three betrayals are only listed as a tale's narration, while the rest of the paragraph about obtaining a victim's soul seems to be written more in a rules context (emphasis by me):

Beautiful Corrupters (...) A mortal bequeaths its soul to the fiend not by formal pledge or contract. Instead, when a succubus or incubus has corrupted a creature completely - some say by causing the victim to commit the three betrayals of thought, word, and deed - the victim's soul belongs to the fiend. (...)

This means, as far as I would interpret it, that the Succubus has to corrupt a creature, which will usually involve that creature committing several actions that could in total likely be described as "thought, word, and deed", but could be as simple as a creature being fundamentally determined to taking revenge on a character by killing them. The creature could be seen as corrupted from that point on. The "word" component seems especially redundant to me, as a good character eventually turning on their friend and killing them should be corrupted enough, even if they never spoke of it before.

The Evidence: Hill Giant Height Change = Correction from 2e to 3.Xe

TL:DR - An Ogre Isn't A True Giant

If you just looked at the two monsters standing side by side, the Hill Giant would be slightly taller and a lot stockier and bulkier in build.

Based on the progression of D&D editions, the change in height appears to be a correction to the bloat/choices in 2e. Hill Giants have always been a much tougher opponent than Ogres(this goes back to OD&D: an Ogre was Monster Table 4 Monster, a Giant was a Monster Table 6 Monster). This theme of comparative power (Lore?) remains consistent with the stats in 3.5e.
While Ogres may be of the Giant Class or Giant Type (usage varies with edition) Ogres are not True Giants. That status is reserved for: Hill, Stone, Cloud, Fire, Frost, and Storm Giants. The distinction goes back to OD&D/Greyhawk when Storm Giants were introduced, and the term "giant class" was introduced. Hill Giants were always the least powerful Giants(Monsters and Treasure).
- An early mechanical distinction in why "Giant Class" matters had to do with Dwarves having an advantage fighting against them(ref Monsters and Treasure): Dwarves did +1 damage (Greyhawk)and took half damage versus giant and other large clumsy creatures like Ogres(Monsters and Treasure).
- Also certain weapons were "Giant Slaying" -- the special damage bonus applied to giant class monsters. (Refs: Monsters and Treasure, Greyhawk).
- Bugbears were added to "Giant Class" (Greyhawk). Gnolls and some Orc kin (1e AD&D). (Aside: Rangers got a damage bonus per level versus Giant class creatures. As with Dwarven advantages, there were some mechanical benefits based on that classification ...)
I mention the above to point out that the "Giant Type" looks like the red herring that prompted your question. A better comparison is between your 3.5 Hill Giant and other True Giants to see if the power gradient lines up correctly.
Supporting points:(Stat format = HD/DMG/Height). The increased Giant Heights stand out in 2e. Compare that to the 3.5e Monster Manual: is the trend consistent?
- As presented in 3.5e, the difference in weight appears to accurately reflect that the True Giant (a Hill Giant) is a larger, stronger, and much harder to kill creature than an Ogre that isn't a True Giant (though of Giant Class/Type). The Giant has 400 pounds of bigger/denser bones, more muscle, more body mass, more monster. (And he throws rocks at you!)
- If you are trying to paint a picture for your players (per your comment): look at an NFL cornerback who is about 5'11 and about 180 lbs, and a fullback who is 6' and 240 pounds. They are both tough, and almost the same height, but the latter is far more powerful, stronger, and harder to knock down. When he hits you with a block, he hits you harder. Height isn't the end all and be all to power. With a 400 pound weight differential, the Ogre and Giant are NOT the same size when all dimensions and factors are considered.

Monster        OD&D             1e                2e                  3.5e 
(HD/DMG/Height) --               --               --                   --
Ogre       4+1/1d6+2/7-10'    4+1/1d10/9'        4+1/1d10/9'        4hd/Dmg/9-10'
Hill Giant  8/2d6/12'         8+1-2/2d8/10.5'    12+1/2-12+7/16'    12HD/Dmg/10.5'

Height(HD):   Hill        Stone     Frost      Fire         Cloud      Storm

OD&D       12'  (8)      15'(9)     18'(10+1)  12'(11+3)   20'(12+2)    24'(15)
1e         10.5'(8+1)    12'(9+1)   15'(10+1)  12'(11+2)   18'(12+2)    21'(15+2)
2e         16'  (12+1)   18'(14+1)  21'(14+1)  18'(15+2)   24'(16+2)    26'(19+2)    
3.5(SRD)   10.5'(12+48)  12'(14+56) 15'(14+70) 12'(15+75)  18'(17+102)  21'(19+114)

Bottom Line: this difference is consistent with D&D lore from its inception. The 3.5e MM(SRD) shows a progression and comparative power like what's always been in the game.

[RPG] What can a Succubus do in the Ethereal Plane

While the succubus is in the ethereal plane, can you see her?

Yes, if you are on the ethereal plane and near enough to see her through all of the mists and such. If you are not on the ethereal plane -- no. The exception to that case is use of a device or spell that allows you to see into the ethereal plane. (The two spells true seeing & see invisible would apply, per SRD p. 198, and magical items like Robe of Eyes or Wand of Enemy Detection).

Does her charm ability works in the material plane while she is in the ethereal plane?

No. The ability to apply that effect does not specifically call out a cross planar capability. You could make the argument that when using an item to see into the ethereal plane, and be in telepathic contact with the succubus, she could charm you. That's worth discussing with your DM.

Note this from Beautiful Corrupters (MM p. 284):

Inevitably, the fiend enters the mortal realm in tempting form to directly influence a creature's actions.

This implies that for all of the RP potential in the previous passage about influencing a target to do things via dream suggestion, the succubus must cross the planar boundary in order to have direct impact on the character/creature. You might call the dream influence a preparation step.

Can she travel to the deep ethereal?

There is no reason why she can't, though whether or not she'd want to is a matter for the DM to derive.

Best Answer

Related Solutions

[RPG] Whence the large difference in power between ogres and hill giants

The Evidence: Hill Giant Height Change = Correction from 2e to 3.Xe

[RPG] What can a Succubus do in the Ethereal Plane

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