[RPG] Do creatures with multiple arms (4+) get to make a standard attack with each pair

attackfeatspathfinder-1etwo-weapon-fighting

I am working on a character design who will have 4+ arms. I am planning on having the character wield multiple weapons and was going to focus on full attacks and two weapon fighting. Then I read a guide discussing vital strike and how when used properly it can deal significantly more damage than multiple iterative attacks and critical hits. So I am looking into ways to have the same 4+ armed character use a standard attack with each pair of arms to benefit from vital strike.

However the issue is that I do not know multiple arm rules and combat rules well enough to know if this is possible. When I read the combat rules for two weapon fighting and the feat TWP neither say what kind of actions they are. Which to me suggests that a character can perform two weapon fighting as a standard attack without using a full attack. But since flurry of blows and a full attack both use full round actions maybe I have only ever seen it being used in a full round action. To be honest before I started working on this I thought TWF was always a full round action.

I found this wonderful feat which is designed for monsters with 4+ arms which takes the place of two weapon fighting and also suggests the same as above. The feat is multiweapon fighting.

Am I correct in that a 4 armed character could wield two 2-handed weapons with both weapons taking -4 on attack rolls and each could make a standard attack which benefits from vital strike in a round? Also using light weapons would increase the number of attacks but would still be made at -4 as the feat says nothing about light weapons being reduced to -2 like TWF does.

Best Answer

Multiweapon Fighting, along with very-nearly every source of bonus attacks in the game, requires a full-attack. A full-attack is a full-round action in which you can make several attacks, e.g. from iteratives, extra arms, extra natural attacks, haste, and whatnot.

Vital Strike offers a special standard-action option to make one attack, and deal extra damage.

You cannot use a standard-action option and a full-round-action option at the same time. Even if you had extra standard actions somehow, at best you would use Vital Strike, and then use a regular full-attack.

Thus, you cannot take advantage of extra limbs when using Vital Strike. Multiweapon Fighting only benefits you when using a full-attack. And since Pathfinder lacks the Savage Species rules for four-armed weapons and the like, it’s impossible to benefit from more than two arms with Vital Strike.

Also, for the record, that guide is wrong. Vital Strike simply cannot keep up with full-attacks. At best you combine the Greatsword Battler divine fighting technique with pounce to arguably use Vital Strike and then full-attack too, which is solid enough until you start trying to figure out how on earth you are going to get pounce as well as all those feats (vivisectionist or synthesist are your only real hopes so far as I can tell).

Related Solutions

[RPG] Is two-weapon fighting only as a full-round action balanced versus fighting with a two-handed weapon

The TWF fighter does less damage than a two-handed fighter on a single attack action (about 35% less), but virtually ties with a full attack action. Letting the TWF fighter always get his full attack damage significantly unbalances the equation in the other direction.

The thing is, whichever configuration you take, you can work on infinitely twinking it out. Two-weapon fighting is better when you want many more attacks. Being a rogue with sneak attack is the number one example of this. Or if you bleed per attack (like with Bloody Assault). Or use poison. Or use the various critical effects from the critical feats. Or want to use some of those attacks for trip/disarm/sunder attacks. There's a bunch of ways to increase your TWF damage by stacking "per hit" things on top.

Two-handed is better when something has DR or you're only getting one attack action in. Per-attack damage plusses and minuses and additional conditions affect a two-weapon fighter much more than a two-handed fighter - a "bard bonus" is multiplied in value by number of attacks. And as you note, you have to get a full attack to get those other attacks... But that's the same thing with a L11 two-handed fighter, they lose out on a lot of attacks when they can't stick and hit.

A straight fighter will do more dps in an abstract sense with a two-handed weapon than two-weapon fighting, if all he does is straightforward hitting without any other interesting feats. But if you change the TWF rules, your player is just going to turn around and layer the other TWF twinks on top and suddenly it's the more powerful thing, and you have to start worrying about your two-hander player... Because he who inflicts the most damage wins the game, apparently.

Also, there's a difference between optimization and real play. Real adventurers find gear, they don't "have 32000 to spend on it." I've played and GMed a lot of Pathfinder, and players have run and enjoyed two-weapon characters as much as two-hander characters. (Sword and board, however, sucks.)

Since the peanut gallery demands "math," here's some reasonably maxed out L11 characters, using all the Paizoey goodness. Each has more special abilites than one can reasonably enumerate, but I tried to stick to "jack up the numbers" options as much as possible. Full builds are below, but the relevant stuff here is that:

2HGuy, attack action: +23 (4d6+29/19-20 plus 1d6 fire plus 1d6 cold) 19-20 x2 - power attack, overhand chop is giving double STR to damage, vital strike, furious focus
2HGuy full attack: +23/+15/+10 (2d6+25/19-20 plus 1d6 fire plus 1d6 cold, 2d6+29 for attacks 2 and 3 from backswing) 19-20 x2
2WFGuy, attack action: +15 (1d6+15/17-20 plus 1d6 fire)/+15 (1d6+12/17-20 plus 1d6 cold) 17-20 x2 - two attacks from Doublestrike, piranha strike is like Power Attack for Dex, if he hits with both then 1d10+1 rend, if he crits +2d6 bleed, agile weapon enhancement gives +dex to damage
2WFGuy, full attack: +17/+12/+7 (1d6+17/17-20 plus 1d6 fire)/+17/+12/+7 (1d6+14/17-20 plus 1d6 cold) 17-20 x2, if he hits with both then 1d10+(1.5x Strength modifier) rend, if he crits +2d6 bleed, agile weapon enhancement gives +dex to damage, +2/+2 during full attack from twin blades, and also +4 AC bonus from two-weapon defense and defensive flurry)

Versus let's say AC 25, the average DPS (including crits and rend) for each is:

2HGuy, attack action: 55.67 (plus maybe shaken)
2HGuy, full attack: 87.06 (plus almost guaranteed shaken)
2WFGuy, attack action: 35.55 (plus two points of bleed)
2WFGuy, full attack: 81.80 (plus 5 points of bleed ongoing)

So yes obviously, in high mobility situations the 2WF guy loses out (though he does get two attacks, not one, from his archetype), but he's pretty much neck and neck in a full attack situation, any slight change to any of these numbers makes the winner of the full attack follies go back and forth. Both these characters have loads of other fun stuff to do, they have more feats than they know what to do with. The TWF guys is obviously much tighter on feats and stuff. Keep in mind this is a straight fighter compare, and there's other ways to fill out TWF and all those rogues with sneak attack can stack a lot of damage on... Go look at some build guides and there's plenty of L11 twf builds out there that do a lot more than this.

Does the TWF guy lose? Yes. But the question is, "is the answer to let him have his 81-point full attack with a standard action?" The answer to that is no, it unbalances it back the other way.

Full builds

Because everyone has stat boost items I usually don't add them, but in this case I decided to make up the wealth differential caused by the weapons with a +4 belt of strength.

2HGuy

Human (Kellid) Fighter (Two-Handed Fighter) 11 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 0)
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +1; Senses Perception -1

Defense

AC 11, touch 11, flat-footed 10 (+1 Dex)
hp 114 (11d10+44)
Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +2

Offense

Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 cruel flaming frost greatsword +20/+15/+10 (2d6+25/19-20 plus 1d6 fire plus 1d6 cold)
Special Attacks backswing, overhand chop, piledriver, shattering strike, weapon trainings (heavy blades +2, pole arms +1)

Statistics

Str 24, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 9, Wis 9, Cha 9
Base Atk +11; CMB +15 (+19 bull rush, +18 sunder); CMD 29 (31 vs. bull rush, 32 vs. sunder)
Feats Bull Rush Strike^APG, Cornugon Smash, Dazing Assault^APG, Dreadful Carnage^APG, Furious Focus^APG, Greater Bull Rush, Horn of the Criosphinx, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Pushing Assault^APG, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Skills Acrobatics +12, Intimidate +13
Languages Common, Hallit
Other Gear +2 cruel flaming frost greatsword, belt of giant strength +4, 150 gp

Special Abilities

Backswing (Ex) Attacks after the first in a full attack receive 2x STR bonus.
Bull Rush Strike Critical hit's confirmation roll is a Bull Rush maneuver check.
Cornugon Smash When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Dazing Assault (DC 21) -5 to all attacks and maneuvers but struck foes are dazed 1 rd (Fort neg).
Dreadful Carnage If you reduce an enemy to 0 or fewer HP, you can make an intimidate check to demoralize all enemies within 30' as a free action.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Greater Bull Rush When bull rushing, foe's movement provokes AoO from your allies.
Horn of the Criosphinx Add 2x your Str bonus to damage rolls on charges while wielding a two handed weapon.
Improved Bull Rush You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when bull rushing.
Overhand Chop (Ex) Single attacks with two-handed weapons receive double STR bonus.
Piledriver (Ex) Standard action: attack with a two handed weapon, if successful, free bull rush or trip w/o AoO.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Pushing Assault If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, push the target 5' back instead of dealing power attack damage.
Shattering Strike +3 (Ex) +3 Sunder and damage vs. objects.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Pole Arms) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms

2WFGuy

Human (Kellid) Fighter (Two-Weapon Fighter) 11 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 0)
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception -1

Defense

AC 16, touch 15, flat-footed 11 (+1 shield, +5 Dex)
hp 114 (11d10+44)
Fort +10, Ref +8, Will +2 (+3 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +3, defensive flurry

Offense

Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 agile flaming cold iron shortsword +15/+10/+5 (1d6+15/17-20 plus 1d6 fire) and
+2 agile frost mithral shortsword +15/+10/+5 (1d6+12/17-20 plus 1d6 cold)
Special Attacks doublestrike, improved balance, twin blades

Statistics

Str 13, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 9, Wis 9, Cha 9
Base Atk +11; CMB +9; CMD 27
Feats Bleeding Critical, Critical Focus, Double Slice, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical (shortsword), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Piranha Strike, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (shortsword), Weapon Specialization (shortsword)
Skills Acrobatics +16, Intimidate +13
Languages Common, Hallit
Other Gear +2 agile flaming cold iron shortsword, +2 agile frost mithral shortsword, 150 gp

Special Abilities

Bleeding Critical Critical Hits deal 2d6 bleed damage.
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Defensive Flurry +3 (Ex) +3 AC vs. melee when making a full-attack with both weapons.
Doublestrike (Ex) Standard action: Attack once with each weapon (normal two-weapon penalties).
Improved Balance -1 (Ex) Reduce the penalties for two-weapon fighting or count off-handed one-handed weapon as light.
Piranha Strike -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Twin Blades +2 (Ex) +2 to hit and damage when making a full attack with both weapons.
Two-Weapon Defense +1 to AC while wielding 2 weapons. +2 when doing so defensively.
Two-Weapon Rend Deal extra 1d10+(1.5x strength modifier) if you hit a foe with both main and off hand weapons.

[RPG] Using more than two arms to wield a bigger weapon

There are no rules regarding over-sized weapons and using more than two arms. Normal over-sized weapon penalties apply.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

The rest of this answer assumed multiple greatsword (or other two handed weapons).
You cannot use the Two-Weapon fighting feats if you are using more than two arms. You need to use the Multi-weapon fighting feats. If you were fighting with two greatswords, one of them with be primary, the other offhand. Likewise, if you had sixarms, two for the weapons would be offhand, and so on. You will always have one primary weapon.

Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with off hands.

Stealing the table from this answer you would make your all your attacks at -4 regardless of if they were off-hand or primary: Table: Multi-Weapon Fighting Penalties

Circumstances             Primary Hand  Off Hand
Normal penalties               –6            –10
Off-hand weapon is light       –4            –8
Multi-Weapon Fighting feat     –4            –4
Off-hand weapon is light and
Multi-Weapon Fighting feat     -2            –2

I have found no rule which changes the damage modifier (*1.5) from high strength.

Likewise, power attack applies to all attacks as described, there are no special rules for using more than one two handed weapon. The primary great sword would get +3 per -1 penalty. The off hand greatsword would get +1.5 per -1 (rounded down, so +1, +3, +4, +6, etc. ) Emphasis all mine.

BONUS HOUSERULE: I would not allow a creature to use a weapon who's category was more than two handed, as per the normal rules. However there are items in 3.5 that required more than two hands to use ( I think it was the scissor sword ) and had better stats. I would also allow a creature with more than two hands to substitue the Multi-WF feat in place of the T-WF for classes with bonus feats, such as ranger.

Have a look at the Gythka and Scissors Sword, which are four handed and six-handed weapons from Savage Species (I know, not pathfinder) on page 45.