[RPG] How to convince the DM that the diplomacy will work on his characters

dnd-3.5egmpcproblem-gmsocial

So I’m playing D&D 3.5e with a small group, and my character, a smooth talker whose main ability is diplomacy, was trying to convince one of the DM's characters to come and help him with a quest to gain fame in the village. But when I rolled diplomacy he said it didn’t work on his characters because they weren’t NPCs.

I showed him that in the book that all characters played by the DM, even ones that are unique and part of the group, are considered NPCs, yet he refused to acknowledge this, claiming it was an insult to call characters he worked hard on NPCs. I have tried showing him that NPC is defined as Non-Player Character, but he still doesn’t acknowledge it, saying that his characters aren’t NPCs.

King, commoners, merchants, and shop keeps are NPCs, but characters he's put a lot of work into and given their own sheets aren't, in his perspective. There are GM-controlled characters who follow the group, but if a character is going to stick around (such as a scholar I hired) he makes a sheet for them and considers them a PC.

I’ve tried reasoning with him many times over this matter but nothing has worked. He’s used diplomacy on my characters multiple times, and refuses to acknowledge that he did. (Each time it was explicitly stated as diplomacy, I had to roll Sense Motive in response, and if I failed my character had to slowly start to agree with whatever the person who was attempting diplomacy was saying.)

Is there a way around this? Something else I can use besides trying to chat RP it? Or a way to convince him that it would work on his characters?

He is a co-DM, the other DM agrees with me, but we are barely ever able too get them both together in RP at the same time, due to different preferences of play (in person, and through chat). Besides the two DMs and myself there are two other players.

Best Answer

Explain to him that "NPC" is not a derrogatory term

It seems to me you're already trying to do exactly this. You are, of course, entirely correct in that "NPC" means "Non-player-character". However, it seems your DM simply thinks that an "NPC" is any 'side-character'. Tell him that this is not the case. NPC's can be very important to the story, and can indeed be part of the main party. Hell, the DM deserves to have fun, and if the DM wants to have their own player character to obsess over and have fun with, they should be granted one. But that doesn't make the character less of an "NPC".

The dice are not omnipotent

You say your character is a smooth talker. As such, I do agree that this character trait should come into play. I agree with you that, no matter how important to the story and/or integrated into the party and/or fleshed out a DMPC is, it stays an NPC, and you should be able to make diplomacy checks. However, with the increase in character-depth also comes a clarification of boundaries. Not all NPC's were created equal. A shopkeeper who was made with just a physical appearance and maybe a general personality archetype can be swayed one way or another more easily than someone with rigid, written down morals.

The character has no background, and thus no underlying reasons to inherently agree or disagree with what you say. (Although they are still realistic people with lives outside of their shop even if the DM had not yet thought of these lives, and thus would not be willing to put their life or job at risk for a PC they never met without a pretty darn good reason. This reason, again, can be given with a good enough Diplomacy check.) A DMPC with rich and deep backstory, however, is different. If the DMPC is an Elf with a deep-seeded hatred for Orcs, which is rooted firmly in his background, then perhaps no amount of Diplomacy rolls may be able to talk this character into teaming up with an Orc. (However, I would not describe a character THAT stuck in his hatred actually fleshed-out, unless his stubbornness also has an underlying reason.)

On the other hand, however, that same backstory might be used to more easily convince the Elf to join the party on an Orc-hunting adventure. Having a character that is more fleshed out doesn't inherently make diplomacy harder or easier. It just makes it harder to convince the character to do certain things, and easier to make them do other things. The best way to find out which is which is to interact with the character and get to know them as a person.

Conclusion

You should accept that, as characters get more fleshed-out, they do indeed become more like PC's, which means that diplomacy checks might get harder, and some rare occasions may be too stubborn to listen to a diplomacy of any level. That does not take away that even the most fleshed out DMPC's are still NPC's, and should indeed be affected by Diplomacy as normal, within the boundaries of their characterization.