[RPG] What are the uses and limitations of Persuasion, Insight, and Deception against other PCs

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Yesterday, I was in a D&D 5E group. Today, I am not. We were playing Out of the Abyss, but that's redundant to my issue, I think.

Basically, the DM and I are interpreting Insight differently. He believes insight is used to determine if you believe someone or not; i.e. "Roll high, you can tell if they are lying or not. Roll low and you have no reason to not believe them (aka you believe them)". Persuasion and Deception determine how well you make someone believe what the character is saying. In this case, it was a PC deception against PC insight.

A player character rolled for deception, saying it was deception aloud. I rolled low on my insight, therefore by DM logic, my character full-heartedly believes him without a doubt. I challenged him, saying that I don't want to believe. However, since it was OOC revealed that the Player Character was under a charm persuading others to believe that the demon in the castle was a friend of his, my disbelief would be meta-gaming. Therefore I have no control over whether my character believes or not. My character believes in him because my insight roll was too low to tell he's lying.

I wrote a whole essay on this arguing against his logic, but in the end, he stated "if a character cannot be persuaded/deceived into doing something the player doesn't want them to do, deception and persuasion have no use. Meta-gaming would run rampant."

Which interpretation is more accurate to the spirit of D&D 5E? Which is more supported by evidence? Which is better for the health of the player and GM? Should this be GM discretion to decide?

Best Answer

This is something you'll have to settle among yourselves.

Everyone plays D&D a bit differently, sometimes more than a bit. There are groups that go to extreme lengths to maintain a hygienic distinction between character and player knowledge to avoid "metagaming", there are groups that feel the game only improves by allowing players to leverage any knowledge they have, and there are groups that go anywhere in between. (and this is just one of the countless variations between D&D tables!)

There is no single "spirit of D&D 5e", and no single correct way to play with the character knowledge relating to the use of these checks. Words like "metagaming", "railroading", "immersion-ruining" etc are often used to disparage certain playstyles, but are seldom accompanied by justification over why these things are discouraged and in what instances.

It sounds like you and your GM both are equally convinced that your respective ways are each the one correct way to play. That is an argument we cannot resolve for you, because there isn't a single fundamentally correct way to enjoy D&D --- as far as I'm concerned both of your interpretations on what D&D is supposed to be like are equally correct.

Every way to play is correct as long as everyone around the table enjoys it --- although some ways are definitely easier for most people to enjoy (or learn to enjoy) than others. But playing two different games at the same table is very rarely enjoyable. That's why, in the future, you need to ensure you're playing the same game before these conflicts occur, and prepare to talk about what kind of game you're trying to play when they occur anyway. You will inevitably have to make concessions at some point, but that is the cost of any group activity --- it's hard to find five-ish people who are always in perfect agreement with you.

A popular tool for these discussions is known as the Same Page Tool. It looks like a questionnaire, but should be treated as discussion prompts for the entire group (every time I've used it as a poll has ended in a bunch of unresolved conflicts that emerged later in gameplay). It's also not something you should vote on --- if people disagree, the best course action is to talk out the disagreement and see if either side is convinced. If the point isn't important to you, concede. If you can't reach an agreement over an issue you deeply care about, look out for a game group that matches your tastes better.

Session Zero is a good place to have these discussions. Even though its name might imply that it happens before the first session, it's not too late to have a session zero now, to realign with the rest of your group about what kind of game you want to play. In fact, I try to personally arrange some "mini-session zeros" with all actual sessions, for discussing what worked, what didn't, and where people want to see the campaign develop.

Summa summarum, this is a problem between you and your GM, your respective expectations of the game not aligning, not a problem in either of your interpretations. If you don't want to let go of your interpretation, and the GM not of theirs, you should find someone else to play with and hopefully help yourself and them discuss your expectations of the game in terms that allow you to avoid or resolve such unpleasant conflicts in the future.