Champion vs. Thief Damage Comparison

championdamagepathfinder-2eroguethief

I am new to Pathfinder 2e. I am absolutely not familiar with the Champion, and just a little bit with the Thief.

How do the Champion and Thief compare regarding damage output (at level 1, 5, 10, and 15)?

We have a Shelyn Champion. Paladin [Lawful Good], glaive (two-handed, so no shield); the Thief uses rapier and dagger with Sneak. Archetypes are not allowed.

Best Answer

Damage Comparison

The Chart:

Paladin beats all Rogue permutations in damage

The Summary:

Paladin outdamages Rogue at all levels except for level 5, when the Rogue has Double Slice (e.g. from the Dual Weapon Warrior archetype). However, said Rogue keeps pace such that the difference is minimal. Attacks are against a Flat-Footed Moderate AC enemy of the same level

Chart Explanation:

The Paladin, according to the parameters stated in the question, is making 3 attacks on their turn with a glaive, and taking one attack using their Retributive Strike each round. I assumed no feats nor other abilities from either character, with the exception of giving the Rogue Double Slice for some of the calculations. A Rogue using a dagger and rapier doesn't actually benefit from using the dagger except as part of Double Slice; otherwise the damage die decrease plus absence of the Deadly trait means that a dagger only outdamages a rapier minimally in a few scenarios at higher level. I did include a line on the Thief only striking with their rapier, or striking with their rapier for the first action and then a short sword for the next two. The third attack on the Double Slice Rogue with a rapier plus short sword is also a short sword attack.

But, Why?

The parameters of this question do heavily favor the Paladin; Rogues have a lot of ways to get the Flat-Footed condition easier (e.g. Dread Striker, Gang Up) that wouldn't work the Paladin, and guaranteeing the Paladin their reaction every round is quite generous. Additionally, this doesn't account for other damage increasing abilities; Thief Rogues can get Precise Debilitations, which adds a large chunk of extra damage. The Paladin has options to increase their damage, but they tend to be much more situational (e.g. only effective vs evil creatures, like Smite Evil or Blade of Justice).

So which class does more damage?

The classes in a realistic situation are probably going to be similar in terms of damage, at least before feats are considered. Their biggest differentiation is not their damage, but rather their playstyle; Champions are very defensive, with a high AC and the ability to protect allies from effects. Rogues are a bit squishier (8 health per level vs the Champion's 10), but make up for that by being extremely good at Skills, and having more of a "skirmisher" feel. Their debilitations at higher levels will make them feel more like a controller/debuffer than the Champion as well.

NB: Yes, the Double Slice calculations technically ignore the "no archetypes allowed" rule. But if you are serious about two-weapon fighting on a rogue, Double Slice at 2 is basically a necessity. Twin Feint at level 1 does help a little bit, but you'll generally be better off stepping into flanking position and Double Slicing.